Jamie: I actually did wanna share something from the session. When the speaker was talking about how “common ground” is a very cis-heteronormative framing. That's exactly what I think whenever I hear “common ground.” As a gay Native American, it's not about finding common ground because it always feels like I'm the one that has to make the compromise to agree, to like get outta the conversation or whatever it is. The common ground is always about me making those concessions, and it's never the people who are at risk of sounding too hostile against me that make those concessions. It's always on me or people who come from my… the oppressed versus the oppressors.

Nancy: How in everyday moments do you meet that awareness of "they are not in the common ground with you"? Like, they are trying to make you be in their ground. What's—how do you deal with that generally?

Jamie: So I'll use the guy that came to campus a couple weeks ago as an example. Brother Matt came to protest LGBTQ…everything that wasn’t straight, white, and Christian really. And generally, when I see that on campus or anywhere, I just keep my head down. I know they're never gonna change their mind. I'm never gonna change my mind. Obviously, they hate me. And so I just keep my head down and move on. It doesn't generally bother me. But that day when I was walking by, my friend had asked me to walk by him with them because they didn't feel safe. They were worried he was gonna say something. And they engaged in a conversation, which started out relatively calm. And then he had called them “a dirty lesbian.” And that made me angry.

And so I had stepped up to get between them. I don't like bullies. I'm not gonna stand up for myself generally, but I'll stand up for other people. And so I got him to put his attention on me in case it was too much for them. And really, when I was talking to him…I grew up in the South. I grew up in Oklahoma. I know the Bible. I can quote a decent amount of chapter and verses. And so I would quote back to him, and he would say, “No, you're a hypocrite, you're a liar, you're not quoting the right Bible. You have to quote the King James Bible, you have to quote this specific way.” And it was at that point that I was like, okay, this guy's just here to cause problems. He's not interested in converting anyone. He's not interested in talking. He wants to get here and yell and make other people yell and then leave.

And that’s kind of what I experience with that—just within a couple minutes I can tell by talking to somebody if they're willing to have a conversation or if they're just wanting to fight.

Nancy: You just have me thinking about how places like Simpson Plaza—which is kind of designated as a noted common ground because it's supposed to be a place of public forum—gets appropriated for things that work directly against it. I don’t have a wise thing to say about that. Your comments are inspiring me to think, and I also don’t want to sound like there’s some solution like, “Oh, if you would do this, everything would be fine.” But I understand what you're saying. It is interesting because Simpson Plaza and Prexy’s Pasture right next to it does feel kind of like this common area for the whole student body, but it is disheartening to see it being co-opted by people like him.

Jamie: But also, it wasn't like a wholly bad thing. Like, I've never really felt very connected to the LGBTQ community here, just because I live off campus. I'm never involved in anything, and I don't really know where to go. But it didn't take long for a group of people to come up around me and start pushing back against him and pushing down his narrative and fighting against that. And that honestly, to me, took back whatever he was trying to do. I mean, even when “skater guy” showed up and just started skating around him—that was enough to be like, okay, so like the majority of Wyoming, at least the campus here in Laramie, doesn't care or doesn't align themselves with him.

Nancy: I had wondered about—like, my tendency is to not engage also. Like I'm not gonna give you the oxygen to spew your hate into my space. I see the shortcomings of that method also. I completely see it. It's also our personalities and our histories inform our reactions to confrontation as well, right?

So I sat and watched him and went back the next day, and there were some LGBTQ students with a flag. And I just went and sat next to them because I didn't know what else to do. I wanted to do something, and I wasn’t gonna go get in his face because I was like, what good is it gonna do? Besides, then I’m making a scene as a professor. So I just went and sat—tried to demonstrate empathy by sitting with. And I was watching and thinking about the students who were trying to push back and who were saying things like, “I’m a white Christian and I disagree with you.” So there were people who were showing both their alignment and their disagreement.

And part of me wanted to go up to those students and be like, “You're amazing. He's not ever gonna listen or change.” But then I was thinking about how also students need the chance to experience the power of pushing back themselves. What do you think about that? Like in that space—is it good to see folks pushing? Like is it good to have the discomfort of the pushing back, or better to have it quiet because we all just turn our backs? Like, I’m trying to figure it out for myself too.

Jamie: Well, I mean, I'll share a really personal anecdote. When I was first coming to terms with being gay—and most gay guys, also gay people really, not to overgeneralize—have this same reaction. Especially if you come from a more conservative area. It's to think “I'm gay, but I'm not like those gays. I'm not gonna dress flamboyantly and go to pride parades and, you know, make sure everybody knows that I'm gay 'cause that's weird. And I'm not gonna do that and I don't wanna cause a scene or bring attention to myself.”

But something that we all learn relatively soon after saying that is the reason that we can do what we can do and not have to fight every single fight is because of people like that—who aren’t scared to stand up and say, “No, I’m not gonna get into the box that you put me in. I’d rather die than be normal or conform to what your beliefs are.”

And it does feel good. Like when I got out there and I was yelling at that guy, it felt good to push back. And I think it's important to know that you can push back and that you have people standing beside you—or willing to stand in front of you—makes a lot more difference than not saying anything.

And I totally get not saying anything because it's hard for me to stand up for myself. But if it's somebody I care about or somebody I'm friends with, I have no problem getting in front of them. Like that's—I have like a mom-friend override or something.

Note: The transcript above has been condensed from its original audio recording to improve the flow and readability of the story.